Voices for the Pacific: The movement

Speakers

Richard Busby, Mary Moeono-Kolio

Introduction

Richard Busby: Talofa lava, mālō e lelei, kia orana, and welcome everybody to our second session of the Voices of the Pacific. And today we're looking at a very unique, I guess, perspective. With us today we have Mrs Mary. And she's going to be joining us from the Pacific Climate Warriors to discuss with us about how climate activism has had a dramatic shift of recent times from an older generation and being championed by younger more enthusiastic followers. So welcome Miriam thanks for joining us today.

Climate Warriors

Mary Moeono-Kolio: Malo lava, Richard. Thank you so much for having us and, hey man, having the Pacific Climate Warriors as well.

Richard Busby: Thank you. So I guess it's really important that I guess we just start with the basic concept about what the Pacific Climate Warriors are and what do you do. Could you kind of tell us a little bit more?

Mary Moeono-Kolio: Yeah sure. Essentially, we're a network of Pacific young people who care for our islands and are doing all that we can to fight for climate justice, to organize our communities, and really call on our leaders to act with the urgency that's required.

Right now, I think we have teams in 15 islands and three diaspora countries. So we have teams in the US, here in Aotearoa, in Australia as well, and across 15 other islands. And yeah, so kind of the key reasons why we came about was really our elders or, I guess, the Pacific climate activists that we see as our elders now. So people like Brianna Fruean, [INAUDIBLE]

You know, these were the warriors, or the climate activists, who we've kind of stood on their shoulders. And they were the ones that really saw that actually a lot of the climate conversations that happened around the Pacific often framed Pacific voices in Pacific communities, countries, as vulnerable.

And, you know, the push was really actually to challenge that narrative and reframe the view of Pacific people in Pacific countries as vulnerable when actually we've been at the forefront of the fight for years, for decades, you know, a lot of the content, the science, the realities that IPCC reports are painting now, we've been highlighting that for 30 years. And we've also been at the forefront of solutions, you know, not only adaptation with our own islands, but also really lobbying and pushing bigger governments to actually act with urgency because we foresaw a situation that we're in now.

Working under COVID

Richard Busby: Great. And you know you kind of said that you guys are spread over 15 different locations almost globally. Can you tell me how that operates and, kind of, how you guys work together and collaborate to have these movements and these changes?

Mary Moeono-Kolio: Yeah. So we're really fortunate because we actually sit under the 350 Pacific arms. So that's the Pacific arm of 350 Global. So we have, I guess, like a secretariat. So the people kind of hold us together. But we're also really fortunate that the framework and the structure of our organization is really Pacific.

So we have what's called a Council of Elders. And they're the ones that really kind of guide us, and direct us as well, and really set the vision, ensure that we're — well, not ensure that we're delivering but more so ensure that, you know, we are kept safe, that there is kind of like a fale or a [INAUDIBLE] that we can come under, that we can go to to seek advice. Which has been really, really great in terms of how we operate.

So it's interesting because, you know, our diaspora countries — we're really aware that we are diaspora. We have the privilege of having access to internet, having access to technology, having access to, you know, bigger countries global leaders that, you know, our island-based warriors may not necessarily have.

So often what we're doing is really highlighting the stories and the voices that's coming out from our whanau, our friends that are in the islands who are saying 'Look this is the reality of climate. And you're inaction as Australia, you're inaction as Aotearoa is really impacting our lived reality, our day-to-day life.'

So a lot of what we do we do together. Our campaigns we, you know, usually we have a campaign that we deliver together. But we have our own spin on it across our different islands, across, you know, the diaspora. We make it relevant and contextual to where we are.

So for Aotearoa, for example, one of the big things that we've been pushing is actually representation. So ensuring that those who are making decisions around climate responses are actually talking to Pacific people. And I'm sure this is, you know, common across many social issues that Pacific communities have to deal with but, you know, we're not at the end point of the consultation process. We need to be right at the beginning. You know, determining what the solution is, what the pathway to, you know, addressing the issue is. Really understanding the issue from a Pacific context.

We find that often, for Aotearoa, when we're talking about climate responses, I think there's a tendency to kind of draw this line around Aotearoa and say 'well we're going to do what's right for New Zealand'. And that's a problem because, one, New Zealand is a Pacific country. You can't draw this neat little line around New Zealand and think that our solutions or our response isn't going to impact regionally. But also, you know, on a real level, you know, our families, you know, we're really impacted, you know, mental health-wise, socially economically, you know.

Even with the volcanic eruption recently, you know. A lot of our families have had to really pull up and provide and rally and contribute to — what's the word? Contribute to — I can't find the English word. The solution, you know, or the recovery. So that's something that New Zealand really needs to take into account.

I think we do very poorly at that. I think we do poorly at including us in decision making. But we do very well in, you know, championing and kind of showing off the successes of Pacific people.

Richard Busby: Yeah, I actually would agree with you. In our first session that we had with Kosi Latu, he did mention actually that the Pacific Islands climate change is actually not a matter of policy. It's a matter of survival. And it's had real impacts in terms of climate refugees and things like that. So thank you for that.

I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about the work being done, especially around especially around COVID-19 and how do you guys still manage to get the work done that you need.

Mary Moeono-Kolio: Yeah. I would say it's a tough one because essentially the Pacific now are dealing with two, you know, global crises — a pandemic and the climate crisis. And unfortunately, neither of them stopped to give way to the other. They still move at the same pace.

So it's been really heartening to see how Pacific young people have rallied. Just last year, prior to a group of Pacific Climate Warriors going to COP26, there was actually a gathering of 600 Pacific youth from across the region who came together to talanoa, to work out actually "What are the things that we can do right now? What do we need to be saying and pushing at COP as a community, as a collective, to really lobby and push for change?"

So, you know, in the Pacific way, you know, after a cyclone, the next day or often, you know, the next hour after the cyclone has left, our people are out there cleaning and putting things back together. You know, the same sentiment. It's the same for Pacific young people, you know. We're in a global pandemic. We can't meet face to face. We've had to pivot, we've had to adapt our way of activism, our way of gathering and fellowship and we've done all of it online despite the fact that many of our islands don't have the connectivity that, you know, our diaspora countries or our diaspora youth have.

But still we mobilized and we were able to mobilize and call out the Pacific Youth Declaration on Climate Change and that was presented by our Pacific climate Warriors at COP26. So we really have continued to move and to push the climate justice agenda.

When we first went into lockdown in 2020, our Pacific Climate Warriors in New Zealand actually brought together what was called the Pacific Vote Count Campaign. And that was to really encourage and push our communities to get out there, involved, and use their voice. So, you know, in terms of the current situation that we're in, we've had to pivot, we've had to adapt, but, you know, our people are used to that. We've done that our whole histories.

Why are younger generations championing climate change as a movement

Richard Busby: That's fantastic and it's great to see that you guys will still be moving and doing the good work that you are.

If possible, I wondered if we could kind of have a little bit of a discussion about how climate change and activism around climate change is being championed by younger generations. And there are a whole bunch of people that you've mentioned like Brianna Taylor and then, more iconically, there's Greta Thunberg. And it's been both something that people have either accepted or absolutely refuted. Could you tell us a bit about why you think youth are becoming the champions for climate change and why it's something that has been such a hot topic of debate amongst, especially, leaders?

Mary Moeono-Kolio: I think the obvious reason is, you know, the younger generation realise that they are the ones who have to live with the consequences of inaction, you know? And ultimately, it's us who have to raise our children in, you know, a climate emergency and we continue to have to.

But also, I think Pacific youth are realizing the urgency and that our time frame to save our islands is really dwindling. And, you know, we're a proud people. It doesn't matter where you are on your culture identity journey. You know, whether you speak [INAUDIBLE] or whether you're just learning it, our young people, our young Pacific people are always so proud of who they come from and where they come from.

And I think the realisation that actually there is a real reality that we may lose our islands scares us. You know, it scares young people and it's compelled young people to really act with the urgency that's required.

Ironically, the thing that we're asking our leaders to do our Pacific young people are able to do. So on a real emotional level, I think "Oh young people know, we can foresee what our future will look like if we don't move now."

I also think with the debate around climate change, you know, in the social media age, we're constantly having to decipher real information from misinformation. I really take my hat off to the young people that are coming through the movement and the amount of work that they do to actually make big concepts like climate change, big discussions like climate change, really accessible to their peers.

Pacific young people, particularly within — well at least I can say from what I see here in New Zealand — have done such a mammoth job in educating their community. You know? And I think it's been such a beautiful thing to see how a lot of our elders now also lean into that knowledge of our Pacific young people.

Often there's this — what do you call it? This, I guess like false narrative that the previous generations have failed us. When in actual fact, you know, for our Pacific Climate Warriors, we've always said "Actually, we come from previous generations who have always taught us how to care and nurture for our land and see, know our relationship, know our vibe between us, the land, the sea."

And so, we've taken that on board, we've taken that approach on in terms of how we navigate relationships with each other and I probably am not a youth anymore I'm probably more youth-adjacent. But I'm always so impressed by just how much —how do I word this? Just how much our Pacific young people continue to take on and continue to give to their community, despite all of what they have to navigate. Not only just being a young person in this time and age but, you know, in a global crisis of a pandemic and a climate crisis.

So I'm not sure if that answers your question.

Climate change as a social issue and discussing climate anxiety

Richard Busby: Well, that does answer a lot of the questions that I had. I guess there's also the adverse effect of having young youth involved on it, which is definitely an experience which tends to be primarily what a lot of politicians ideally use as the reason why it shouldn't be championed by the youth, but by seasoned politicians and scientists instead.

But that doesn't seem to have stopped the movement at all. And I guess a lot of the reasons — well, one of the things I wanted to kind of have a bit of a discussion with you about is how come more than any other social issue has that become more prevalent? More than, for instance, on your New Zealand statistics have definitely discussed the idea of climate anxiety. And that's been something that's given rise. Could you, kind of, talk us through that a little bit more?

Mary Moeono-Kolio: Yeah. I think it's really archaic to assume that, you know, climate discussions and climate change is something that should be championed by politicians and seasoned politicians. Every civil movement in history has been driven by young people, has been driven by youth. And I don't know what it is.

I think, like I shared before, I think you know our people, our young people, our young Pacific people, are just acutely aware of the situation that we're in and will no longer take inaction, full stop. And yeah I guess when we're talking about climate anxiety in our own team, I think we're kind of on like our third generation of young people who've come through the Wellington team.

Climate anxiety is something that we really do have to navigate. And I think how that plays out in terms of activism itself is finding the balance between really encouraging and supporting our young people to push the cause and push for urgent action, but also being very mindful that the age of activism is getting you know younger and younger.

I think of the 2019 strikes and when we're at Parliament here in Wellington there was a preschool, and I can't remember if it was from Naenae or Porirua, but there was a Tokelauan preschool who came to strike for climate. And the reaction was oh how sweet. Like that's so that's so powerful to see that image. That's so powerful to see our preschoolers out striking for climate.

But we really reflected on it as a team and we were like does it take our preschoolers having to come out to strike for climate for our leaders to take our voices and the cause seriously? So it's an interesting space that we have to kind of walk between. You know, really encouraging our Pacific young people to use their voice and be active and caution and hold our leaders to account, while also saying, they shouldn't have to do this. We shouldn't have to have our preschoolers, you shouldn't have to have our young people giving up school to convince our leaders that climate change and climate injustice is a real thing.

And so yeah. I have a lot of thoughts about this and when we're talking about the resilience of Pacific young people, myself and my own journey when relating to climate anxiety has evolved too. You know, when I first kind of started in the movement, truthfully I was really intolerant of the conversation around climate anxiety, because my view was "We don't have time. We don't have time. We have to keep on going, keep on keeping on."

But as I grew in the movement and I grew to understand that I have a responsibility to the younger ones that are coming through, that's one — harmful, and it's not sustainable but it's a real reality that our young people now have to work through.

And I think when we're talking about New Zealand's domestic response and the cost of climate change, I'm not sure if we've quite accounted for the mental health impacts of climate change on Pacific young people. And that's really concerning when you think about mental health statistics now. We figure poorly across a lot of those statistics, which is really concerning. And this is yet another layer of things or something to complicate that.

Myths about climate activism being uncompromising

Richard Busby: Thank you for that. It does actually lead me into the final group of questions which is, when you are petitioning for change and better movement, I guess there's a couple of myths that I would like to kind of have cleared up with you. And I think one of those is people kind of associate young activism with being very assertive and uncompromising. And obviously in the world of politics and things like that, there is a lot of things that need compromise.

With this movement, quite often it seems that people think that climate change as an ideology is united but the movements are not, they all petition for different things. And because of that, nobody really knows if there's any compromise with that. Could you kind of walk us through how Pacific Climate Warriors address this?

Mary Moeono-Kolio: I first want to acknowledge that is a very big question.

Richard Busby: (Laughs)

Mary Moeono-Kolio: I guess what I would say in terms of being uncompromising — actually what I'll go back to in terms of being uncompromising across the movement. You're going to have that in any social issue. You know, people may agree on what the harm is of climate change, but we're all going to have different views on what the approach to get there is, and what the appropriate approach and way for us to work together is to get there.

And at least for the Pacific Climate Warriors, you know, we have to do our part, whether big or small, we support and encourage that. But ultimately, in order to get the change that we need to save our islands, to save Tuvalu, to save Tokelau, we need those bigger countries who have influence to be pushing the end to fossil fuel. And we have always been crystal clear on that position.

So, you know, an example of that is, we often hold other countries to account for, you know, things that they may do. And, you know, the situation in Ukraine and Russia is horrible, absolutely horrible, and New Zealand is responding as they should. But we also need — so I want to say that you can hold two truths at one time as I continue this — that what's happening in Ukraine and Russia is super important and that New Zealand needs to respond appropriately, urgently.

In the climate context, Australia continues to open minds that we know will devastate, you know, not only the whenua and Australian, those indigenous lands. But it has a bigger regional impact within the Pacific. And if we understand the urgency of climate change, and what we're trying to stop, and the irony of Australia opening a mine, or the irony of, you know, not pushing what it is that our Pacific leaders have been really crystal clear on to Australian and New Zealand leaders.

It feels like there's often a mismatch between what we say to Pacific people and we say to Pacific leaders — and I say we, Australia and New Zealand — versus what we actually do internally in our countries, but also what we do internally to hold each other to account. And, you know, it might be a very simple example, but it just really blows our mind that New Zealand, you know, has this image and really pushes this this is our nuclear free moment in terms of climate change, but our neighbor, our closest neighbor, is opening one of the world's largest mines and we have said nothing. We have said absolutely nothing.

So, you know, just examples of inconsistency like that is particularly frustrating for us. I'm not sure if I have answered your question, if I've gone off on a tangent.

Richard Busby: No, very well articulated, thank you Mary.

What needs to happen

I guess it's also important to note that in recent COPS as well, Australia almost sided with India, China and USA by not really pledging properly to zero carbon emissions, which was a bit disappointing as well to see from them.

I guess this leads us to the final question before we take questions and answers. And for those who are here, please feel free to put in your questions for Mary so that we can have a Q&A session.

But I guess the last question is, for the Pacific Climate Warriors, we always finish it off with what can we do better. I guess, what would be the most ideal change for the Pacific Climate Warriors? Is it a seat at the table of being able to push that change? Would it be to have a more prominent voice? What would be, kind of like, the most ideal turn out for you?

Mary Moeono-Kolio: Well, the context I think will differ depending on where we're based. So if I think of Pacific Climate Warriors here in Aotearoa, absolutely having a seat at the table. And, you know, often we're told "If you don't have a seat at the table create a new one." But that's always really hard for us to hear because ultimately the decisions that are made are made without us. And so one of the big things that we often push is actually what does your process look like? When did you think of the Pacific and how have you thought of the Pacific?

So we've been very open and been very public about our disappointment that the climate commission didn't have a Pacific voice there, because there's no experience that's more valuable than lived experience. But also understanding the wider context of having lived experience of the climate situation also gives you context to how that might impact our local communities within New Zealand. And we wouldn't lose sight of things like the mental health impact, the social cultural cost that our communities will have to take on for the inaction of New Zealand.

So 100 percent, you know, having a seat at the table. What does that look like practically for our communities? I think within our communities is being open to having a conversation with each other and being open to learn and really when you're unpacking, you know, climate impacts or climate change, is actually understanding that for a lot of us, you know, our culture is deeply, deeply sustainable.

You know, we talk about about it all the time. We are the original. you know, environmentalists. All that we are taught is sustainable, you know, how to look after the land, how to nurture the sea, how to nurture that bar between you and the land and each other. So many of our lessons and our proverbs and our, I guess like, you know, our environmental analogies that, you know, that's not by accident. So definitely having a conversation within your families, and then, what I would say is, you know, hold your leaders to account.

And I think it's really hard when people say hold your leaders to account because, how do you do that? You know, be open and be vocal. You know, those leaders that were elected, they're required to listen to you. And I can't stress this enough. You know, writing an open letter, connecting in with who your local representative is, you know, understand what the local solutions are or what the position is on climate change, where our Pacific communities involved in solutions.

Yeah, so I would say in terms of a thing that we want to see, we want Pacific communities to be seen as a critical stakeholder, a critical voice in determining New Zealand's response to climate change. What we want to see from our communities is that they feel empowered and supported to have those conversations with each other and within their own families.

And I think that's one of the beauties of the Pacific Climate Warriors is that we go out of our way to try and cultivate those kind of spaces where we can bring people together, of different generations, to have those hard conversations, to discuss what that looks like. But then also to discuss what's our path forward.

So that's my long 50 cents, Richard.

Richard Busby: No, thank you at least it shows that it's been well thought out.

Just as a side note to that as well, I think it's also very important for our viewers to understand that. And recent polls actually, in a research said, they did say that over 70 percent of Millennials and Gen Z, within the United States, would like to see critical change, especially in energy. But less than 30 percent felt like their voices were actually having any impact in their communities and such. So it's definitely something that we hope to avoid and something that we can be a part of.

Q&A

But anyway, we go on and we've actually got a question for you Mary. And it is "What are three simple things we can do to resist the effects of climate change?"

Mary Moeono-Kolio: That's a very interesting question. Well, I guess what I would say is it's very hard to resist the effects of climate change. I think what we have to do collectively is, you know, find things that you can do to contribute to, I guess... the climate response.

So, sorry I'm just trying to think through this because, in terms of resisting the effects of climate change, climate change is here and now and we're all feeling it. But what we can collectively do to contribute to the solution is — there are simple things that you can do, you know.

Limit the time that you spend in your car, you know. If you want to do something bigger, you know, connect with your local environmental group. You know, find a group that works for you, find a group that fits the kind of work that you want to deliver. There's so much out there, you know. Reach out to the Pacific Climate Warriors.

I always struggle with this kind of question because there's not one thing that you can do, and there's not one thing that we would recommend to address climate change. But what I would say is, you know, look at who the groups are that are in your local community, reach out to them. If you do have capacity, you know, connect in with your local representative and find out, you know, what is their response, what's their position.

And then, within your own home, within your own family, what are simple things that you can do, I guess, to limit your emissions? So it might be your car, you know, choosing a day to not drive, you know, maybe one day you don't want to eat meat, you know, one day you might want to you know join a group who's planting trees.

There's a lot of simple things that we can do. But in terms of resisting the effects of climate change, unfortunately, my friend, we can't do that right now because we're living it. We're already in it.

Richard Busby: Thank you for that. I think it's also another note as well is that a lot of people think that climate change was either some great giant big action, and actually it's a whole bunch of little small things that actually do kind of work to — so you don't have to do things collectively, you can make individual choices to be eco-friendly as well.

Which actually does come with a little bit of a side question, if that's okay with you Mary. You know, talking about things like resisting climate change, making eco-friendly choices, how does that change your impression of say, large businesses and large markets and supply chains that, traditionally, was seen as the bad guys. Places like McDonald's, who are now trying to make all these eco-friendly choices and sustainability has become a very big part of their market. I mean, does that overall change people's positions on...

Mary Moeono-Kolio: My personal view of that is we don't — while we're all working towards a perfect response, we're never going to have a perfect response to climate change. So if we can see, as a society, these big companies starting to pivot their approach, you know, starting to really prioritize being eco-friendly, to me that's an indication of the power of people and the power of our voice, that we've pushed these global organizations, these big corporations, to actually change how they operate.

And I think if people focus on how big that is that, you know, we've actually really — through the movement, through the collective voice of people, that we've been able to influence Coca-Cola, you know, to really prioritize like — you put out plastic, you need to do your part to take out plastic.

You know, those things I think we shouldn't lose sight of. Of course there's always a grain of salt that you take these things with. And I always do, of course. Because ultimately, you know, people are driven by profits, which is, you know, a challenge too.

But yeah, that's my view of that. I think if we focus on the fact that our collective voices have been able to influence how corporations operate, then that should be an indication of how our collective voice can really influence decision makers.

Probably decision makers should be easier to influence. Because they are tied by our vote. We put them there. And I know that's easy to say but, hey like, if I could count the amount of times that I've awkwardly emailed my local rep or, you know, a government Minister on climate change and just said "Hey you said this yesterday but you didn't do it today." Those kind of things have impact. And what that usually results in is that people realize, "Oh okay. This lady Mary, she's not going to go away because she's going to continue to hold me to account."

So that's that's an example of, you know, I think collective voice, but also what we can do to really influence our leaders and that's where, at least for me, that's the space that I think we can really push. Because New Zealand is unique and I think we're very fortunate in New Zealand as well that we have such a big Pacific representation within Parliament. And that we can leverage that and say "Hey like, you also speak on behalf of our people, you speak on behalf of our region." Leverage that.

Richard Busby: Well nice, thank you.

We do have a couple of more questions here for you so thank you for being ready to answer them. So the first one is — quite a large question, broad question — is "What's next for the Pacific Climate Warriors?"

Mary Moeono-Kolio: What I can say for what's next for the Pacific Climate Warriors in Wellington is that we're continuing to invest in our young people. So we're in an exciting change period where we've got two new coordinators who will be, you know, leading our group. And we really prioritize investing and growing new leaders. I think good leaders create new leaders. And so, you know, look out Wellington. Our team will be doing a lot of work to connect in with our communities.

And that's where our priority is, you know. Working with our communities, educating and training ourselves, but also our community and sharing that knowledge and then planning our next steps together.

Richard Busby: Nice. And then we have one more question which is "Could you share one or two responses from The Young Pacific Warriors and how they've been impacted by the seriousness of climate change? How has it changed their perspective?"

Mary Moeono-Kolio: Yeah. There's an example that we've often shared about the innovation of our Pacific young people. And in Tokelau, keyhole gardening has become a really big thing. So, because of one of our Warriors. And what will happen is that, you know, obviously because of climate change and salination of the soil, crops weren't growing as well.

And so through, I guess, the sharing within the climate network and the climate movement, one of our Tokelauan Warriors was actually able to take an indigenous approach from Africa, which was keyhole gardening, and bring it to Tokelau, you know, to address the salination of soil and, you know, through that they've been able to adapt really well. Obviously — oh I mean, I wouldn't say really well — but they've been able to adapt to the current context of climate change and the salination of the soil to be able to produce produce for their village, for their families.

So I think that's a really great example of how, you know, we experience the impacts of climate change but then we quickly pivot and look for solutions. And, in this case, we've looked to another indigenous solution and brought it to Tokelau. So that I think has been awesome. Yeah. I'll leave it at that.

Richard Busby: Great, thank you. That was a bit of a loaded question and I guess we didn't really expect you to memorise responses. But I guess, with our time kind of running out, I guess the last one would be "What is some advice that you could give to not just younger generations, but people like me or older generations in supporting this movement?" Because a lot of us have come from backgrounds where climate change wasn't something that we focused on, or was always about education or the economy and, now that we want to be part of this movement, other than educating ourselves what what else can we do?

Mary Moeono-Kolio: Well, educating and, I think, taking an interest in the conversation is the first step. What I would say is that, you know, our migration journey is that our ancestors, our parents, our grandparents, we came to New Zealand to seek that better education, to seek a better life.

And the way that I kind of approach my family's migration story is that now that I've benefited from that vision of my grandparents to bring our family here, to be educated, I can now take that education and give back to my community, give back to my country, give back to my grandparents. And I get really emotional about that because, if you think about the foresight of our grandparents, the vision of our grandparents to actually, you know, uplift their whole families, move to a foreign country in the hope that it will be better for their families, this is where, you know, the fruits of their labor, the fruits of their sacrifice can really come to fruition.

You know, and what I would say too is our Climate Warriors, like, none of us came into this movement as climate experts. None of us came into this movement as scientists. None of us came into this movement as, you know, politicians or, you know, aspiring politicians. We all came from it, came into this movement from different, you know, walks of life.

And what we've been able to do is actually talk about our love of for our islands that has driven us to say "Okay, our love for our islands, is this — what do we do with it? You know, what can we do?" And I realize it's a big question to say like, you know, "What can we do?" You know, especially if you don't come from that background. But I think what I can say is that just assurance that the worries that you see, or the worries that you hear from, none of us went through — well, not many of us went through school thinking that we were going to be climate activists.

But understanding the necessity and also, you know, our ability to contribute to this piece of work. We've done our part in kind of educating ourselves, training ourselves up, seeking out opportunities to learn and understand how we can meaningfully contribute. And I think that's the beauty of the Pacific Climate Warriors is that every country team, every city team has a different approach depending on the skills and the experiences that are within that community.

So, probably doesn't give you like a specific, you know, next step. But I would say the step that you're taking in terms of educating and understanding and learning is probably the most important. And then, in time, you'll find what's what's the most meaningful way that I can contribute to this movement.

And, you know, if there's anyone here in Wellington and you are keen to be a part of the movement a lot more actively, our Wellington team are always open to working with our community, having a talanoa, like just sharing lessons, sharing stories. I think that's where the real learning is, being able to share our stories and the lessons that have come from that and that's informed our next steps.

Richard Busby: Awesome. Well, thank you Mary and, honestly it's actually a bit of a shame that we've run out of time because I feel like we've only really just scratched the surface. I look forward to hearing from you guys again and we're really interested now in the journey of the Pacific Climate Warriors. We want to thank everyone as well who has been able to listen and participate with us. And we invite you to really kind of consider and think over the words of Mary and the Pacific Climate Warriors. So thank you very much and, once again Mary, thank you and everybody have a good day.

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