E oho! Te Petihana Reo Māori 50 years on

Speakers

Poia Rewi, Ngahiwi Apanui, Paul Meredith

Pepehā/Mihimihi

Ngahiwi Apanui: Tuatahi e tautoko ana i ngā mihi, kua takoto i a Paora, i te mea hoki e tika ana kia tīmata pērā tonu ā tātou hui katoa, nē. Kia honoa te kikokiko ki te wairua, kia āhei tātou te haere whakamua, te mihi ake ki a rātou kua tīraha, rātou kua huri atu ki tua o te ārai.

Whakahokia mai rātou mō tētahi wā poto kia mihia, kia tangihia, anā ka whakahokia anō ki te ao wairua, ērā āhuatanga katoa e tika ana kia whakarewaina e tātou i mua i te tātitanga o tā tātou hui.

E mihi ana ki a koutou kua tae mai i tēnei rā. Te āhua nei te katoa o taku whare i haramai kia kikī ngā tūru. Tēnei au e mihi atu nei ki a koutou.

Koutou hoki o Te Mātāwai, nā te mea ko koutou hoki ō mātou hoa i roto i te pakanga mō tō tātou reo, nā reira e tika ana kia whakatakoto kōrero tahi māua ko Poia i tēnei ahiahi. Koutou tonu o tēnei whare, o ngā tari kāwanatanga i haramai nei i tēnei ahiahi, tēnei taku mihi, Basil, kite atu au i a koe, TPK i tēnei wā, nē rā?

Heoi anō e mihi atu ana ki a koe, koutou katoa i haramai nei, ka nui te mihi, ka nui hoki te aroha ki a koutou tonu, ki tō tātou reo e kī nei au te reo o Aotearoa, nē. Koinei anake te reo i tipu mai ai i roto i tēnei whenua. Haria mai ai ētahi atu reo engari nō waho kē. Nā, ko tō tātou reo, te reo Māori, he reo nō Te Moana- nui-a-Kiwa i tīmata mai i, te kōrero mai ki a mātou, i roto i Āhia, heke haere mai i roto i Te Moana-nui-a-Kiwa tae noa mai, tata au te kī Ngāti Porou, engari tata, ka tae mai ki roto o Aotearoa nei. Kia ora tātou.

Tēnei āhuatanga, te Petihana, me āta whakaaro tātou mō taua wā rā. Kāore he reo Māori i roto i ngā kura, kāore he kura kaupapa, kāre hoki he Kōhanga Reo, ko te tokomaha o te tangata kāre nei e rata ana ki te reo, ahakoa i roto i taku hapori o Te Araroa, katoa ngā pakeke, ōku kōkā, ōku pāpā, he hunga kōrero Māori.

I pērā rawa i ētahi atu rohe hoki, pērā tonu i a Tūhoe, engari ko mātou tonu, ngā tamariki o taua wā rā, i ākina kia kaua e kōrero Māori, kia huri kē ki te reo Pākehā hei oranga mō mātou tonu.

Nā reira i a au e tamariki ana i rongo au i te kōrero, e tā, moumou noa iho te reo Māori, kāore koe e whiwhi mahi i te reo Māori, moumou tāima. Nā reira i tonoa au kia haere ki Tīpene, he kura noho i roto i te tonga o Ākarana. I reira au mō te whā tau. I a au i reira i mataku au kei tohua au ki te whaikōrero, nā reira i ngū taku waha. Nā, ka tatū atu ki te whare wānanga, arā ka hoki anō ki te kōrero Māori, i runga anō i te wāriutanga o te reo Māori i reira.

Nā reira ko te Aotearoa o taua wā rā, te Niu Tīreni rānei, he pērā rawa. Ka tae atu au ki roto o Ākarana kia toro atu au i ōku whanaunga i reira, nā ka mea kē rātou ‘Papatoe’, nā ka mea au ‘Papatawi’ tērā , anā kata kē rātou, ka mea au ‘Kōtuku Street’, ka mea rātou ‘Kotuku Street’, ka kata kē rātou ki a au, pērā tonu. Nā reira i pōhēhē au, ki ōku whakaaro, ko ōku whanaunga katoa o te tāone, he Pākehā. Engari ka tatū atu ki te whare wānanga, nāwai ā ka mārama haere au he aha i pērā ai rātou.

Nā reira ka huri tērā pōhēhētanga ki te aroha mō te hunga i tipu mai i roto i ngā tāone. Nā reira ēnei āhuatanga katoa, i reira i taua wā rā. Te wā i piki ai ngā tāngata nei i ngā arawhata o te pāremata ki te whakatakoto i te Petihana Reo Māori.

I rongo au i tētahi e mea ana ‘E tā, i whawhai noa iho rātou kia ākona te reo Māori i ngā kura. Me āta whakaaro, kei te hē kē tēnā. He tino whawhai tērā nā te mea he pērā rawa te kaikiri o Aotearoa i taua wā rā. Kāore e pērā ana ki ēnei rā. Te nui o te tangata o tō tātou whenua e mea ana ko te reo Māori he wāhanga nui o tō tātou tuakiritanga.

Nā reira kaua tātou e pōhēhē ehara tēnei mahi i te mahi nui, he mahi nui rawa atu, he mahi rangatira. I puta i a Robert Pouwhare i a ia e kōrero ana i te pāremata, i mekea tōna māhunga i a ia e kimi haere ana i ētahi moko, hainatanga rānei mō te Petihana. I pērā rawa a Niu Tīreni i taua wā rā. He ao anō tērā.

Introduction to Te Taura Whiri and Ngahiwi’s background with te reo Māori

Te Taura Whiri i te reo Māori, we were established in 1987 as one of the-- as a result of the petition. The petition is really, really important because it kicked off our current Māori language revitalisation strategy.

If it hadn't happened, Te Taura Whiri might not have come about. Te Mātāwai might not have come about. We might not have had Māori TV, Kōhanga, all those things. But a bunch of young people from University got together and put themselves at quite a bit of risk actually to get those signatures.

And I just wanted to underline what I said in te reo Māori earlier on. I heard somebody say, oh, their petition is a waste of time. It was just to get te reo Māori taught in schools. Well, you have to imagine what New Zealand was like back then. And it was definitely not like what it is now. And I can tell you-- I can remember as a child at Te Waha o Rerekohu area school, the centre of the world.

We had our first ever Māori language class in 1975, three years after the petition was presented. And I can remember my uncle Wai-o-te-ora Wano, Stone Waro we called him. I don't know how Wai-o-te-ora became Stone. But taking that first class and it was the first time I'd ever seen him happy at the school because he loved te reo Māori and he wanted us to speak and to learn it. In fact, he wasn't supposed to talk to us in Māori in class, but he did.

And so that was the-- my first experience with te reo Māori in school. Because when I went home everything was in Māori. All my aunties, or my uncles, and my grandfather, my mother, all spoke Māori to us. But there was one thing that was really put out in front of us. Maumau tāima te reo Māori, kare koe whiwhi mahi mā te reo Māori — The Māori language is a waste of time.

You won't get a job. And I can tell you now, with the exception of a couple of cleaning jobs, I'm really glad that I spoke Māori. I would have been jobless. So you need to understand the New Zealand that was and that has-- and the whakapapa that has lead us to where we are today.

The value of te reo Māori — Whakapapa, context and statistics

And today we were in a pretty good position. We know that 8 out of 10 New Zealanders believe that te reo Māori is central to our national identity. It wasn't like that in 1972. We know that 75% of public servants value the reo that they have and want to grow it.

We know from the last general Social Survey that there are 400,000 speakers of te reo Māori in New Zealand now. Now, that's a huge progression on the last census that was taken, which said we had around 150,000. So if those are correct, if all of those data sources are correct, we should have our million speakers before 2030. But I'm not holding my breath, nē?

So there were a lot of things that happened from 1987 when we were established through to 2015 when I came into the job. And when I arrived at Te Taura Whiri, the discussion was really, really-- well, it had heated up about what the new te reo Māori Bill, Act was going to look like. And it was going to look very different for Te Taura Whiri. But I think we needed to look back at the 30-odd years that had happened from 1987 to 2015. And some of the things that we had learned.

And one of the things that we had learned was that e kore e taea e te whakahaere kotahi. One organisation cannot do it all. We actually needed to get everybody to work together. And we're still trying to do that in 2022. And it's really hard and in a sector. We have your central agencies that are all focused on what the minister wants. And their tension between trying to deliver the government of the day's policy, and deliver to the people of New Zealand.

That is the tension for the central agencies, not so much for us the entities that sit just outside of the central agencies. Where we have-- the minister can jump up and down at our board chairs. And we could just go and hide away behind them.

What we’ve learnt — Collaboration and evidence are key

So, one organisation cannot do it all. Working together is the key. This is a big one for Te Taura Whiri because our central premise really is to promote te reo Māori. Evidence. We need-- we soak up data like nothing, especially our comms team. Particularly for the promotion of te reo Māori.

I heard somebody say, “oh, it sounds like Te Taura Whiri does marketing rather than promotion.” Hold on, they’re the same thing. If you don’t know who you're promoting to then you’re wasting your time. And so we know a lot about New Zealanders psycho-demographically, as well as gender, race, location, all those types of things. Tēnei mea te whakamanamana. The old egos. Everybody wants to make their mark in the sector.

And I can remember about two years after I got into the job one of my mates said to me — a good guy. He said to me “Bro, te reo Māori has never been hotter in post-colonial New Zealand. Everybody’s going to want to jump on your waka even though they’re in danger of overturning it”. And it’s exactly what’s happened. So the ego thing needs to be put aside.

What we’ve learnt — Putting egos aside and valuing resourcing

Look, for me, it’s — my thing is about make the most of what you got, and do the best job you can. Put the ego aside. Value unusual resource wisely. We don’t have a lot of money. In fact, at one stage in 2018, 2019 we had a baseline of $4.2 million. But that still didn’t mean we couldn’t do the job that we needed to do. We now have a baseline of $11.2. One day we’ll beat the ballet [LAUGHTER] Sorry about that. I couldnt resist it.

What we’ve learnt — Understanding roles and non-Māori involvement in revitalising

Understand the production line and your role in it right? Now, we know where all of our speakers are coming from. They’re coming out of kura kaupapa and whare kura. The problem is only 20,000 — 20% — sorry. Only 20% of Māori children of school age are actually in Māori medium. So, it’s Kura Kaupapa and immersion, total immersion. That's where our new speakers are coming from.

The other issue that we have is that only 1 out of 5 Māori speak the language. So, when we start looking at intergenerational transmission of the language, only one family, Māori family in 5 is able to do it. Because the other four families can’t speak te reo. So this is something we have to address there. But the production line, if we look at it, our new native speakers are coming out of total immersion te reo, out of education. So it’s kind of like ‘what the school tooketh away, the school puteth back.’ It’s interesting.

And this final thing here, Māori cannot replace revitalise te reo on their own. And we can’t. We’ve been trying to do it for 30 years and it hadn’t worked. And one of the frustrating things for me as a parent of kura kaupapa children is having my children at 10, 11 years of age refuse to speak Māori to me.

And then one day I asked them, I said, “he aha i pērā ai?” “Well, Papa, all the cool songs are in English. All the news is in English. All the radio stations are in English. Only you fullas speak Māori at the marae, and at home, and at school”.

And so you cannot revitalise a language in a vacuum, everybody needs to be on board. The fact now that people come home from overseas and freak out when they watch the news. Who even freak out when they talk to their friends who are using so much te reo regardless of who they are.

And look you know, it’s really important. That last one there. We need everybody on board. We can bring up the C word, colonisation and all those types of things. Or we can get on with revitalising the language and looking forward. Look here, I’m not going to go into all of this.

How did we do? And the state of te reo Māori in 2015

But after 30 years this is — in 2011 the government appointed Te Paepae Motuhake to review what had happened. And these are the recommendations they made. And all of those recommendations have been implemented apart from a minister for Māori language.

Just imagine that, eh. Minister for Māori language would be awesome. But what it would mean is that if we had a minister for Māori language then they would have to be a central agency that would be responsible for te reo, and I think that's why they went and got sidestepped.

The state of te reo in 2015 before-- when the new Act was being put together. Fluent speakers down from 25.2% of Māori population in 2001 to 21% in 2013. Only 0.6% of the non-Māori population can speak Māori fluently. And point — it was at 3% of the total population speak te reo fluently and that’s with Māori speakers chucked in. So 97% of the New Zealand's population kāore mōhio ki te kōrero Māori.

New Act — Maihi Māori and Maihi Karauna

The Māori language act came in 2016. Established a partnership between Māori and the Crown. Te Whare o te Reo Mauriora, the house of the living language established Te Mātāwai to represent Māori focused on Māori communities, or the micro focus. And that's important because a lot had been expected of the Te Taura Whiri before this.

We were looked at as the ‘one stop Māori language shop.’ But we just — we couldn't. We couldn't deliver on all those expectations. We just weren't resourced enough to do it. And we needed more of a presence in the communities. We were bumped over to the side of the Crown, and focused on the public sector and wider New Zealand, or the macro view. And to dual complementary strategies, the Maihi Māori and the Maihi Karauna were put together. Maihi Māori was put together by Te Mātāwai, and the Maihi Karauna put together by a group of public sector agencies.

Three pou of the kaupapa matua – Whakawhānaungatanga, manaakitanga, taunaki

So what it meant for us was a new role. We weren't any more the ‘one stop shop for te reo Māori.’ And what we had to do was to start looking first of all at our approach. And that approach is underpinned by three things. Whakawhanaungatanga, which is not building relationships. It's inclusions. It's finding reasons to bring everybody into the whare how te reo connects us all together as New Zealanders.

Manaakitanga, caring for people. I get really hōhā when I see a fluent speaker giving somebody a hard time, particularly a learner because they've made a mistake. Learning, getting things wrong, making mistakes is all a part of learning. There's a way to be supportive other than telling people — giving somebody a hard time because they've made a mistake. So that was a big part of it.

But also making — you don't invite people into your whare and then you leave them sitting there starving at the table without a cup of tea and a biscuit. You want to make them feel welcome. So Manaakitanga is very important. So we have a real emphasis on being kind to learners.

And taunaki, evidence. For us evidence is God. Because the evidence tells us where people are, what they're doing, how they live their lives, their attitudes. And so we can shape our promotions to ensure that they're hitting the mark.

Business model

And this is our business model. Promotions Te Wiki o te reo Māori. We do a Waitangi Day promotion as well. We've got our storytelling kaupapa going. If you had anything to do with te reo Māori over the past 50 years, you might want to go on to the website reomaori.co.nz and put your story down there. We lead the implementation of the Maihi Karauna. We provide language planning support.

We run the Te Papa Kōrero, which is a CEOs forum, public sector CEOs forum, which looks to support the implementation of the Maihi Karauna through the sector. We have our Māori languages services. Translators/interpreters license. The Level Finder Exam.

So if you want to find out where you are in terms of your language proficiency, you can sit that exam. And also lexical development or the development of new words, and there are others as well. And then research and evaluation.

Things we’ve learned in our new role

In our new role we've learned some things over the past five years as well. Marketing and product testing is essential. We get so little money, we can't afford to waste $400,000 or $500,000 on Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. So we test first. This tohu here came out of marketing. It came out of testing. And what we — we used — if you remember this, but we used to change the tohu and the kaupapa of Te Wiki o te Reo Māori all the time prior to 2016. And we did that because we'd always done it basically.

But what it did was it prevented us, or prevented people from building any kind of brand loyalty with te wiki. So we went to Colmar Brunton and we asked Rachel Pita at Colmar Brunton and asked her to run some online focus groups to develop a brief for this. And out of that brief, this went up to Katarina Ellis or Katarina Kerikeri as she is now, up in Tolaga Bay.

And she came back with this. And I'm pretty sure my staff added the rainbow colours in. And I can tell you now when I saw those rainbow colours I thought, ooh. Not because it's cool but because it means that all of my LGBTQ+ nephews and nieces get included. So everybody looks at this and goes te reo Māori is for me. That is the coolest thing about it.

An inclusive and kind approach works. There's that whole thing — I'm not too sure if there's a Māori proverb for it. But what's it—Māori proverb that you get more flies with honey than vinegar. Yeah. So when you're nice to people they're more likely to come visit your house, aye. Understanding who our people are is critical. Understanding who people are, how they live their lives. How te reo fits in with their lives.

Like for instance, we know if you're anything like me and you're a public servant, you get up in the morning. You have a fight with your kids to go to school. You get to school and you're about five minutes away from ending it. And then you work. You get all stressed out. And then you finish at 5 o'clock, and it starts up again.

And so at about 9 o'clock when you're sitting down to watch TV, two minutes away from ending it. The last thing you want to do is learn te reo Māori or learn anything. You just want to rest. Actually you want to put your kids back but you can't. So you know, when's the best time to learn te reo Māori? When you're at work, as part of your work. That's one of the things that we've come up with.

Hoatu, homai. You've got to give something-- get some-- oh, sorry. You've got to give something to get something. [he whakataukī Māori] So you put something in, you get something out. And this one here, this one right there on the bottom here. The most important one of all.

Learners of the future of the language regardless of whether they're born into a family where intergenerational transmission is happening, or whether they're going to a community class, a class at the University, kura kaupapa, whatever. Learners are the future of the language. And so we really need to value them and grow their numbers. Because the more of them there are, the more potential speakers of te reo Māori there are. So I'm going to finish there because I've already gone too long.

And e mihi ana ki a tātou, nē, nā te mea hoki i kī mai tētahi me reo Māori ēnei kōrero, whakaaro au nā te mea, ko ēnei kōrero, arā ētahi kāore nei e mōhio ki te kōrero Māori me reo rua taku whakatakoto kōrero. Kei a Poia tāna. Nā reira, e mihi ana ki a tātou, kia ora tātou katoa mō tēnei wā

Waiata tautoko — Whakarongo

He kupu tuku iho, mō tēnei reanga

Whakarongo!
Ki te reo Māori e karanga nei
Whakarongo!
Ki ngā akoranga rangatira
Nā te Atua, i tuku iho, ki a tātou e
Pupuritia, kōrerotia, mō ake tonu

Tirohia!
Ngā tikanga tapu a ngā tīpuna
Kapohia
Hei oranga ngākau – auē

Whiua ki te ao
Whiua ki te rangi
Whiua ki ngā iwi katoa
Kaua rawatia, e tukua e
Kia memeha e

Whakarongo!
Ki te reo Māori e karanga nei
Whakarongo!
Ki ngā akoranga rangatira
Nā te Atua, i tuku iho, ki a tātou e
Pupuritia, kōrerotia, mō ake tonu

Tirohia!
Ngā tikanga tapu a ngā tīpuna
Kapohia
Hei oranga ngākau – auē

Tēnā, kia purea te hau ora e
He kupu tuku iho, mō tēnei reanga

Whakarongo!

Pepeha/Mihimihi/Kōrero Poia Rewi

Poia Rewi: You wouldn’t have another presentation up there would you?

[LAUGHTER]

Ahakoa rā Te Ātiawa e tau nei, tēnei ka mihi, Te Ātiawa e tangi nei, tēnei hoki ka tangi ngātahi i a koutou. Ki a koutou kua tae mai, tēnei te mihi. Kia koutou e tangi nei, tēnei hoki tātou ka tangi.

I always didn’t want to go after the handsome guy. But never mind. So be it. Here we go.

Tēnā tātou kua hui nei i runga i tēnei kaupapa. Mā te aha rā i te karanga i a tātou kia kotahi i raro i ngā whakamarumaru o tēnei whare. Nā reira Ngā Taonga tēnā hoki koutou e whakahui mai nei i a tātou i tēnei rangi.

All right. E Oho, 50 years ka taea te whakawhiti pēnā i a Ngāhiwi. I've been told that my English is just as unintelligible as my Māori. So I'm not too sure what to do here. OK.

I mua i te tīmata i ngā kōrero nei, te whakaahua tuatahi a Ngāhiwi, ko ērā i kawea nei te Petihana ki te Pāremata. Me maumahara anō tātou ki ō rātou mātua, kuia, koroua, i whakatō i tērā mana, nui o te mana ki roto i ā rātou tamariki, mokopuna, i kaha ai rātou ki te haere ki mua i tērā huinga.

Rātou hoki i kite i te mate haeretanga o te reo. Nā reira i mōhio rātou he mate kei mua i te aroaro, e tātou mā, e oho, ko te Petihana tērā.

Picking up on Ngahiwi I think to acknowledge the parents and grandparents of those who took the petition because their parents, as Ngahiwi said as now we see from their hometowns embedded their belief in the Māori language as something worth fighting for. So that goes pre-1972.

But when you look at them Pēnei i a tātou e titiro nā atu nei ki a koutou. Like you here today, we hope that that same fire will burn within us that we won’t let it out either. So Petihana I kitea te mate haeretanga o te reo.

So, in the decline of the language, some of them woke up, some of our iwi still didn’t. I'm talking about some of our iwi out there, and some of the areas were our reo was OK. Kāore pea i rongo i tērā mamae.

So, the pain is a big driver of their loss. The threat, our big drivers there. So 50 years ago, petition I whānau mai, i runga i ngā kōrero a Ngāhiwi, ngā tuākana, koirā ake e mihi nei ki Te Mātāwai hei tuakana mō mātou i tēnei rā, mō tātou.

1987 the Act status of the language. Putting it back into the schools like Ngahiwi said. And we've got to believe that there was no way our ancestors foresaw that by taking it into the education system, it will remove it out of the homes. I don't think that was ever the intention. However, 44 years later, Ko Te Mātāwai trying to take some of it back into the homes.

So koirā tāna, i te wā i tae mai ai a Te Paepae Motuhake. Crown, you've had a good go at it. Thank you. I acknowledge you for your efforts, honestly. I acknowledge you, but the language is still declining. Te Paepae Motuhake said, why don't you try giving that back to the people. The people whose hearts are filled with that fire and filled with the desire to keep it alive. So quite ironically as Ngahiwi said someone to fuel the fire was given a name of water.

[LAUGHTER]

Te Mātāwai tēnā e pūpū ana i ngā maunga, heke ai ia ki ngā raorao, ka māhorahora atu rā, ka heipū i roto i ngā moana. So trying to take the language, in all the other areas, in our homes, and our values, so we can come back and meet again as an ocean of language.

And this is Te Mātāwai and Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Māori ko te whakamoana i ērā kitenga i ērā akoranga Bringing all the evidence from our communities, the public sector, education, everything together. Put it through a filter again. Have a chat and see how we can refine our delivery hei motu.

So I'm going to boast here, because as the little brothers do, we don't get much big brothers being on the scene a lot longer. Everyone knows he can sing. Everyone knows he can dance. But no one knows what the little brother can do.

[LAUGHTER]

History on the decline of te reo Māori and the whakapapa of Te Mātāwai

Anei, kua kōrerotia tērā, kei mōhio koutou ki tērā whakapapa, ā, anā kei te mārama ana tērā. But the main thing noting from in the early 1900s, a large percentage of fluent Māori speakers got down to — 10 years ago dropped down to about 21%. And that's when said, hey, something needs to happen.

Te Taura Whiri te reo Māori stopped the decline. Te Taura Whiri stopped the decline. Now we need to plateau and now to try and grow back up I haramai, i whānau mai ko Te Mātāwai i runga i tēnā.

I'm even faster than the slides. But koinei noa te mahi nui a Te Taura Whiri. Get our public sector on board, synchronised, collectively contributing to our language. Te Mātāwai you go back and engage with that interesting, diverse Māori whānau entities. All those diverse opinions, positions, and come back and see how we can make that happen together so we get it happening everywhere.

So koirā ngā mātua putanga o te whāinga o Te Mātāwai. Taking the language back into our home. A language used he reo ka kōrerotia tērā. And this isn't just Te Mātāwai doing this Te Taura Whiri is also pushing for that as well amongst all of its other activities.

Te Mātāwai and its core values — Kia ūkaipō anō te reo Māori

So we have the three things tuakiri the identity of our language and identity-- identity and language. An intergenerational mis component. It's got to be three generations. Ngahiwi talked about the tamariki. But if it doesn't get to the tamariki, that fire will burn out.

Rūmaki is providing the environments for that language can be normalised and naturalised. So one of the things that Te Mātāwai does, just throw Oranga o Te Whānau me Te Kōkiritanga o te reo, put those wrap it around so that the language or these activities aren't going in isolation. Trying to anyway. E ono tau noa iho te pākeke 6 years old so we're going to see. If it works, we'll tell you next year.

[LAUGHTER]

Te Mātāwai te pōtiki, e rua ngā putanga o tērā. Ko te pōtiki, koia te mōkai, koinā rānei te mea whakarurenga hā. So as the newbie, the last born one gets all the care, gets all the hand-me-downs too. But gets all the love. Gets all the lollies.

Whakarurenga hā, koia hoki te mea ka whiua ki te kōrero. Te mea whakarurenga hā tērā, that last one getting all the growlings. Whakapaua, whakarurea te hā o ngā mātua, ngā pākeke ki runga i te tamaiti pakupaku nei. For whatever reason spoiled or lucky.

So koinei ngā āhuatanga o Te Mātāwai i runga i tana noho mai hei pōtiki i tēnei wā. Heoi anō he whakarāpopoto noa tēnei i ngā mahi a Te Mātāwai. Ko te mana tuatahi ko te whai a Te Mātāwai i te mana motuhake. Tērā mana motuhake e ahu mai ana i ngā iwi. So we're based in Wellington as an office, but all of the — a lot of the recommendations, the decision making is devolved. Such a lovely environment. If you want to come and work with all 109 iwi, haramai ki Te Mātāwai. It's easy as.

[LAUGHTER]

I think my hair was black when I started. And I don't want to be like Ngahiwi and have nothing left when I finish [INAUDIBLE].

[LAUGHTER]

Ko te mana motuhake tērā. Whakahokia te mana ki ngā iwi hei whakatau. So I'm just going to give a couple of examples there. Whakapuhia, because we are engaged with the people they do have — now — have a nice manner with us. So whakapuhia, we're giving all the blessings of the young [INAUDIBLE].

Te Mātāwai represent the people. Again you talk about the legislation. Te Mātāwai came out of legislation eventually. So legislation, you got the model language Act. Then from the Act, you had a Crown Māori-language strategy. And then from the Te Paepae Motuhake you have the review of the Act.

So, from the review of the Crown Act you’ve got Te Mātāwai. So this will come out from the Crown ultimately. So just keep that in perspective. But taking the authority back to the people, ultimately. We're not there yet. We're probably quite a way off from that yet. If it changes along the way, which I shall briefly talk about.

He iho ki te Iwi — Representation model

Heoi anō, ko te wawata tērā, ko te wawata anō tērā. Kia hoki tērā mana ki te iwi nōna te reo. Ki ngā iwi, ki ngā whānau, ngā kāinga, ngā hapori nō rātou te reo. So we connect it to all these lovely regions. And please don't shoot me down. For the region's people came out of the Māori language advisory group. That’s the…in them.

[LAUGHTER]

But try to find a model to give more representation to the people. So as you can see, it was just a starting model. I'm sure we'll go through some changes. Te Reo Tukutuku those are whānau who are not sure where they are. They might be Ngāti Porou at their home but then they- who are they when come to Pōneke?

So all those, our whānau urban Māori. Three generations Māori in their urban areas. So that's to cater for those who are more comfortable in their now. So I'm sure Ngahiwi wishes he had 13 on this board. [LAUGHS] again if you didn't get funded-- if you didn't get an investment funding from Te Mātāwai, look for the people up there. Just putting it out there whānau.

Kaua e waea mai ki a Poia i te tari. Arā ngā mea hei manawawera mā koutou, ko ērā rā. So those are the people who have all the regions covered and the advisory groups out there to represent the 109 iwi. That's just an example of a kāhui investment plan. So they make the plan out in the region. We don’t in the office. And that's what they advise us they have. And they come up with what works in the area.

Ko rātou kē ngā mea e rongo ana i te tuki o te manawa, i runga i ō rātou whenua, ō rātou wai. So all that's developed and the recommendations come from the iwi.

Te Tiriti o Waitangi, Te Ture reo Māori and partnership with the Crown

So Ko te mate o tēnei e hangore ana te pōtiki i te wā e whakarure ana i ngā hā. There's a couple of other areas Te Mātāwai is not known for yet. And these are ko Te Mātāwai te hoa mahi tahi me te Karauna mō te whakarauora i te reo Māori. And when you want to change a 150-year habit, it's challenging.

So ko te tamaiti tēnei e tohe ana he aha i pēnā ai. Anā, kei te kimi rā i te huarahi e pakari ai ia i tōna ao, e Māori tonu ai ia i tōna ao, i tēnei ao e noho nei ia. So Te Mātāwai has been a partner that's a huge mind shift that requires the state to take on. But I'm sure they, they are all intelligent people. They'll come around.

With help from Ngahiwi and we’re on. Tuatahi, arataki i ngā tari, ngā pokapū karauna. We haven't quite-- Te Mātāwai, we're still developing. We haven't been able to lend that much support everywhere. Ngā tari kāwanatanga e tautoko nei i te reo Māori. We're not quite there yet, but we're coming.

Hei te wā e pakari ai te tū, kua taea noa ērā ringa te āwhina. So all of those navigating the different approaches, taking it back to iwi, giving another one authority. Those are challenging. Koinei te wā aka tau mai i ngā hā o ngā iwi. But, taku mana tiketike o Te Mātāwai ko te kawe i ngā take o te iwi Māori ki ngā Minita. Talking about that. So one of those forums is an entity called Te Runanga Reo — sorry.

Te Runanga Reo. It's a forum where ministers come together with Te Mātāwai to talk about the strategy and the way forward. It's still developing. They're still learning the kawa. How to engage. But they’re meeting.

Nā reira, kei te tēpu kotahi e hui ana. So, when Te Mātāwai goes into that forum, it doesn't think about Te Mātāwai only. It will look at Te Taura Whiri te reo Māori, Te Māngai Paho, Whakaata Māori, Te Manatū Taonga. Anyone who is invested in language. If the Crown is doing anything to halt or make it challenging for them to do their business. That's Te Mātāwai's business as a partner and in the revitalisation of the language.

As I said that's still a work in progress. And those are the ministers we're meeting with currently and some others. Trying to make as many friends over there as possible. While they’re still in power.

Ko te Rūnanga Reo tērā. Kei Te Mātāwai, kotahi te tūru, engari tekau mā toru ngā mema ka taea te noho i tērā tēpu. Te Mātāwai says who it wants on it’s side of the table. Te Karauna they say who they want. Kei te pai.

So this is where we're trying to, again, work in progress. Te Mātāwai to help and support koutou ngā mea e kawe nei i te reo i roto i ngā kaupapahere, te ture, te aha noa, te aha noa. They are trying to support that area. Yeah, that’s the whare. Ngahiwi can talk more about that in another stage. Te Whare o Te Reo Mauriora.

But that's trying to bring it back to Māori that mōhio tātou ki te whare, ka tae ki tō marae, kotahi anake te hau kāinga, kotahi anake te mana whenua, anā, te tikanga ko te-kei Te Mātāwai tērā, e pai ai te whakatau he aha rā te kawa i roto i te whare, ki hea mea noho ai, ki hea mea tū ai, hei āhea kuhu mai, hei āhea whakawātea ai. So that's the type of concept that's there. But again, trying to get all parties conscious of their model is still in development.

But, kei konā te pito mata. So there's potential there. Koinei te whāinga, ka uru atu ki te maihi Māori e kōrerohia nā e Ngāhiwi. In terms of the Māori, strategy for Māori, this is what Te Mātāwai aims to do, to develop an informed connected, sustainable, influential whānau and community leadership model.

Ko tērā anō e mea ana he wā tōna kei tēnā iwi, kei tēnā whānau anō tōna kaha hei kawe i ōna kaupapa mō te reo. He pai noa te wawata, te moemoeā, engari i runga i ngā kōrero a Pōtatau ki te kore he whakakitenga ka mate te iwi.

So that's the vision we strive for. I don't know who put these slides in. So we're trying to be all of this — connected, informed, whakapono, rangatira, ukauka. Koina anō e mea ana i roto i ngā tauira i tēnei wā, we've seen whānau become capable. We've seen them connect with each other. We've seen them know their business more. From doing applications to reporting and to organising themselves. Hei te wā ko rātou kē ngā rangatira o ō rātou ake kaupapa.

And the last thing is for that to be sustainable, arā sustainable not just in the language and the generation of transmission. But sustainable in terms of our whānau Māori being their leaders, believing in themselves. And one day perhaps, whakapono ana ki te Karauna he hua pai kei roto i āna mahi. Been a lot of tension between our whānau and the Crown in the past, and a bit of mistrust.

Nā reira kia kaha ki a koe Ngāhiwi, te kōkiri i tēnā mea e whakapono ai ō tātou iwi, ki roto i ō tātou hoa i roto i ngā tari kāwanatanga. Yeah, I've already said all of that. I'm sure I only had five slides Marcell.

Te wawata nui rā, kia hoki mai rā te reo ki taku waha ki Ake, Ake. But I hope that one day it'll be as it was in the late 1800s when the language was not being learned, it just was. It's not being taught, it is. Koirā noa taku puna kau e hoa mā, kei aku rangatira, e mea ana ki a koutou. He whakamātautau ināianei.

Waiata tautoko o Te Mātāwai

Kāore te pō nei mōrikarika noa
te ohonga ki te ao ka ngū taku reo
Ka nanao ki te mana o aku tīpuna
Ko te mana tuatahi ko te mana motuhake
Ko te mana tuarua ko te Tiriti o Waitangi
Ko te mana tuatoru ko te Ture Reo Māori
E toru ngā mahi a Te Mātāwai
Taku mahi tiketike he kawe i ngā take a te iwi Māori
ki ngā minita
Taku mahi tuarua mahi tahi ki te karauna hei whakarauora i te reo Māori
Taku mahi tuatoru arataki i ngā tari a te iwi kia hoki mai rā te reo ki taku waha ki ake ake.

Kia ora tatou.

Attitudes towards te reo Māori

Paul Meredith: I think we've got about hawhe hāora ki a tātou e toe ana So we can take some questions. I was given a list of questions ko te āhua nei kua oti pai i a kōrua I a koutou e whakaaro pātai ana, ko taku pātai ki a kōrua, ki ā kōrua whakaaro, kua huri te tai?

I was just saying to Poia before, ka tae atu ki te kura o taku kōtiro, he rima tau you know, Whakatipu Rua Mano, taki karakia ngā tamariki, pātere, mōteatea, and I was saying to my cousin at that school, when we were at Kihikihi primary when we were five we were singing, this land is your land. This land is—your land, in B-I-N-G-O

[LAUGHTER]

Nā reira kua huri te tai?

Ngahiwi Apanui: Oh. Well, it depends on how you look at it. If you look at the number of New Zealanders that value te reo Māori, yeah, the tide has turned. Attitudes towards te reo Māori are vastly different from what they were back in 1972 to probably what they were even six or seven years ago. And we keep on seeing the measures coming up or the indicators coming up and in research studies like the General Social Survey.

The issue still is though, your language doesn't live for your value. Values is the first stage. So if somebody values a language, they're more likely to learn it. The issue is to get to turn all of that value. That we're seeing between 75% to 85% of New Zealanders who value te reo Māori and turn them into learners. And then turn those learners into speakers. And that's a bit of a process because as we know, you don't just go to the shop and buy te reo. You have to invest a significant portion of your life to learn it.

And if you're Māori that's-- you're thinking to yourself all the time, this is my language. Why am I so koretake at this? Why aren't I as good as I should be? This is my language. And if you're Pākehā, you're sitting there thinking, oh, should I be in this class? Am I guilty of cultural appropriation? Should I vacate my seat for a Māori. This is my language.

All those types of things are going on in the hearts and the minds of learners. And so the infrastructure now is really, really important. It's how the infrastructure is able to cater for the current demand. And what we're seeing is that we are thousands of teachers short. There's huge demand. Unprecedented demand. We have some of our educational institutions coming back saying there are three times as many people on waiting lists as there are actually in classes.

We also have a by-product of that too where there is this fear amongst Māori that somehow we're losing out. That somehow by Pākehā learning the language, they're taking something away from Māori. My thing is that that's going to happen anyway. There are going to be more non-Māori speakers than there are Māori language speakers if we continue along the road that we are simply because there are more of them than there are of Māori. It's a simple numbers thing.

But you can't have your cake and eat it too. So you can't complain about going to the bank or going to the shop, and not being able to do your transactions in te reo Māori, and those people are not allowed to learn the language. So in order to have your cake you have to allow everybody else to learn as well. And that ensures that when our children are coming home from kura kaupapa and from total immersion, and they turn on the news, they hear the language being pronounced properly.

They hear people like Simon Dellow and Melissa Stokes using it. And even turn on to TV3 and hear the same thing too. It's that type of wraparound that we need for our children. So rather than seeing it-- for me, rather than seeing it as something we're losing, seeing it as a wraparound support for our children that are going through rūmaki.

The other thing we need to understand too is that-- I get this all the time from-- when I go home back into Ngāti Porou. It's always good to go home for a holiday. If you go home to live they think you're trying to steal something. Anyway, we won't go there. But I'll invariably be asked the question,

“Hey Ngahiwi. Why do you want all these Pākehā to speak Māori?”

And I'll say, “Oh, yeah. What's wrong with it?”.

“Well, we might lose the mana of our language.”

I'll say, “Well, OK. How long have we been speaking English for?”

“I don't know. I'd say all around the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi. About 180 years.”

“Yeah.”

And I said, “I'll tell you what. The English are really tough.”

And he said, “Why?”

“Well, because after 180 years of speaking their language, we still haven't been able to wrestle the mana of it off them. They still have the mana of their language. You see a language has mana because it's spoken. That's what gives the language mana.”

So the more people that speak te reo Māori the more mana it has. And that's the attitude I take towards it.

Paul Meredith: He aha ōu whakaaro Poia? E aroha ana ki a Ngāi Māori kore e taea te kōrero Māori, e noho i roto i te whakamā, nē?

Poia Rewi: Koinā pea te whakautu ki te pātai mēnā kua huri te tai. Kua rēhihia i ētahi wāhanga, engari kei ētahi wāhanga, kāore anō. So the figures that Ngāhiwi talks about of non-Māori enrolling and lining up for Māori classes. What if we had that same quantum of Māori lining up to go into our kura. And then I must say I think the tide has changed. But koinei te whakamātautau, te wero ki te iwi Māori. Anā, as I mentioned the thing about whakapono.

They're still cautious about where they're sending their kids. And some of their beliefs. Pērā hoki ōku mātua, kaumātua, kāore e whakapono he hua tō te reo Māori. From the time they lived and what they experienced they couldn't see the value in it. Engari i mea ngā mahi whakatairanga a Te Taura Whiri i Te Reo Māori, i kitea pea rā kē he hua tōna. Yeah, it's got some value.

Mā reira pea e akiaki i ngā tamariki, ngā mātua ki te whakahau i ā rātou tamariki kia haere ki ngā kura. And then beyond the learning that Ngahiwi talks about I think is-- it's got to be intergenerational.

So, if bloody Paora here goes and learns Māori and then he stops speaking it 5 o'clock when he leaves the office. And then there is kids there at home, there's no guarantee, there is no sustainability. Natural sustainability.

Paul Meredith: Lets not go there, it is a bit of an investment, he pakanga nui i te kāinga. Worst thing I think I did was when we bought Alexa. So the three-year-old, Alexa play this. Alexa play that. Alexa kāore koe i te mōhio ki te kōrero Māori. You know, he pakanga nui i te kāinga, you know, ngā tamariki, what they've seen around them aye Ngahiwi what you were saying.

Ngahiwi Apanui: Can I-- just one last thing too. There was a finding that's not really talked about that came out of Richard Benton's research back in the 1970s. And that was that just about every community that was researched said until Pākehā value te reo Māori, the language will not live.

And I think we kind of-- the C word comes up a lot, colonisation. It comes up a lot. Colonisation. This and that, and all the rest of it. And I think for me, I spent a good deal of my time in tertiary education. Being paralysed by analysis around colonisation and getting angry about it. I watched the Muru movie and got angry about it again.

But really it's about what do we do with what we've got? What's the situation we have and how do we make the best of it rather than drowning in that stuff, because you can. You can drown in there very, very easily.

But the whole thing around the old people saying and that research, that until Pākehā value te reo Māori, te reo Māori won't live. And that's been one of the things that has driven Te Taura Whiri and what we've done.

Paul Meredith: We got any questions yet from the audience, pātai? Kaua e whakamā!

Poia Rewi: Well, while you're thinking of some deep and meaningful questions whānau, I think the other thing we've definitely seen with Te Mātāwai devolving that the decision making back out to them, there's a bit of a shift in that tide. Tērā whakapono tērā, the self-belief is increasing. So I think it's slowly.

Paul Meredith: Kei te mahi tahi ngā tari e rua? Kua kitea he kaupapa hei mahi tahi?

Ngahiwi Apanui: Oh, look. I'll be honest. We could do better. And look, nobody's to blame. And really it's around-- for both of us, we both run boards. We both work under boards that are pretty strong. And look, it's taken me seven years to get where I am with my board. The first three years were tough. I have to admit that.

And you have Māori governors that have a very different governance view to other boards. And that's just something-- that's just the way it is. And so we-- for me there's nothing worse than managing your boards. You get into trouble. So it's around our boards getting together and saying, OK, this is the lineation. And then saying to me and Poia, you guys put together your work program, and that's what we'll be doing in the next few months or so.

Poia Rewi: Yeah, we'll get there. [LAUGHTER]

Paul Meredith: Ā tōna wā

Poia Rewi: Te Mātāwai, it's a challenging model. 13 board members representing 109 iwi. They don't come to the table all the time as kaihautū like [mentioning of two iwi members] they come or the aspirations, with the pain they come with, there's no negotiation when they come to meet. [LAUGHTER]

First kaipātai from the audience

Audience member: Kei aku rangatira, tēnā kōrua. Tēnā kōrero mai he aha ētahi kawenga e kawea nei e kōrua o roto i ō kōrua tari e eke ai te taukī ko te reo kia tika, ko te reo kia rere, ko te reo kia Māori?

Poia Rewi: Māmā noa iho ki Te Mātāwai, mā te iwi anō e kī mai kua tika tōna reo. Koinā te reo tika, kei a ia te mana whakaae me pēnei te rere o taku reo, kaua mātou i Pōneke nei e kī atu anei te reo tika, anei, me pēnei te rere, ā, me pēnei e Māori ai. Koinā, kua hoki atu a Te Whakatōhea, e kei au kē te tika o tōku reo. Koinā te tauira a Te Mātāwai.

Ngahiwi Apanui: Whakaae atu au ki tā Poia i mea mai ai. Ko te wāhanga ki Te Taura Whiri he whakatakoto i ngā tikanga e pā ana ki te reo ōkawa. Koirā te reo kei roto i ngā kura, te reo kei runga i ngā haina, ērā tūāhuatanga. Engari ko te wāhanga ki ngā iwi, kei a rātou tonu tērā. Ehara a Te Taura Whiri i te pāhi o te reo Māori, he tari kāwanatanga kē mātou.

Ko ngā rangatira o ngā iwi, anā, ka tohua e ō rātou iwi, ko au tonu i tohua au e Wayne Ngata, taku whanaunga. Heoi anō, tērā āhuatanga tērā. Ko te wāhanga ki a Te Taura Whiri he whakatakoto i ngā tikanga e pā ana ki te reo ōkawa, that’s the Māori Language Conventions, nē. Engari te reo auaha, te reo ā-iwi, kei ngā iwi tērā.

Poia Rewi: I think you got to be cognisant that when Te Taura Whiri was established there was one entity trying to stem the decline over 200 years. So when Māori had nothing to go to, Te Taura Whiri was there. And as our iwi develop and post-settlement agreements, all of that our people are becoming more knowledgeable and reaffirming what they already know. So Te Taura Whiri held that space when our people had nothing else. We had little else to go for.

Paul Meredith: Ka tika, nō Ngā Tāonga ahau, ko tāku mahi ia te rangi, ia te rangi, ko te mātakitaki i ngā kiriata tawhito, ngā hōtaka tawhito pērā i a Koha, te reo o te Kāterina Mataira, i a kōrua e tamariki ana he aha ngā tino hōtaka reo Māori e maumahara nei i a kōrua. Tērā pea kua oti te wāhanga ōkawa, me kōrero ōpaki. Maumahara koe tērā o ngā hōtaka te reo, me ngā rākau?

Ngahiwi Apanui: Ko te tino ki a au ko Pūkana, nē. But I was a father of a child and I was watching with my children and I said… Kia mātakitaki tātou i a Pūkana. He pai tēnei. I watched it for me, not for them. But I remember when Koha was on. I remember what's his name? Mr. Kora running it. He was the — the was the presenter. Kora.

Yeah. I can remember — what else? I can remember as a child in the '70s sitting down with my grandfather on a Sunday night to listen to the news in te reo Māori on the National program. And Bill Parker was there. He was the kaipānui. And they had a brass vision of ‘Haere rā e hine’ , which was really interesting. That was the…. Koinā hoki te waiata mō taua hōtaka. Koha came on.

Then Te Karere started just before I went to University, and that was a big thing, especially mō ōku pāpā, ōku kōkā o te kāinga. Mō te wā tuatahi i āhei rātou te mātaki i te pouaka whakaata, arā e kōrero Māori mai ana a Whai Ngata, a Derek Fox, Tāwini Rangihau, a wai ake, a wai ake, e kōrero Māori ana.

So mahara au ki ērā and tino mihi au ki a rātou nā te mea he uaua i taua wā rā, he nui ngā kōrero whakahē ki tō rātou tari matua mō rātou e kōrero Māori ana, ērā tūāhuatanga katoa. Engari mahara au ki ērā. Tētahi wā, anā ko te hōtaka mō te whakahokinga mai o ngā taonga o Te Māori ki roto o Aotearoa, mahara au ki tērā.

Paul Meredith: Pēhea koe, Poia? He tīwī kei Murupara?

[LAUGHTER]

Poia Rewi: Mate, first ones came out in Murupara. Marae, Koha, Te Karere.

Paul Meredith: Ko wai tō tino Kaiako reo Māori i a kōrua e tamariki ana? Kōrero Māori i te kāinga? I te kura rānei?

Ngahiwi Apanui: I te mea hoki kāore he reo Māori i te kura tae noa mai ki te tau waru tekau mā rima. Nā, ka haere au ki Tīpene, i reira tētahi kaiako ko Denis Barnes tōna ingoa. He hōia te tangata nei, he hōia o mua. Ka kīia ai e mātou ko te Sargeant Major, nē, engari he autaia ki te ako i a mātou.

Kāore au i mārama ki te wetewete reo i taua wā rā, engari nāna anō i whakamārama mai ētahi āhuatanga. Tae rawa au ki te whare wānanga, e tama, mate katoa i te wetewete reo. Engari ko te tino o ngā kaiako i a au i te whare wānanga, ko Ruka Broughton.

Paul Meredith: Pēhea koe i Te Whare Wānanga o Waikato?

Poia Rewi: Te kaiako tuatahi mō te reo Māori i a au i te kura tuatahi ko Sophia Waitai, nō Te Taitokerau. That’s at Tawhiuau School back in nineteen seventy-something. Anā, koirā taku kitenga tuatahi o te reo e whakaakohia ana i te kura tuatahi. Pērā hoki māua haere ki ngā kura tama nei. You know, got taken into these boarding schools. Didn't know how to approach a female. When we came out of there, that's my... I just had to learn the hard way.

Whare wānanga – waimaria katoa au, katoa i Waikato he maha ngā kaiako. Te katoa, kei a ia anō, i haramai te reo o tōna iwi, kei a ia ngā piki, ngā hiki o tōna reo, te rere o tōna reo, katoa he rerekē hei akoranga māku. And so I fortunately to learn – probably off everyone except Ngāi Tahu. And that was good for me because when my students used to say this is the reo of Te Tairāwhiti, I’d ring up – is that how that’s said? [LAUGHTER] nah nah. He hamuti tērā, puruheti tērā. But they all had different styles and you all know them.

Paul Meredith: Did Tīmoti recite the Lord's Prayer when you gave a translation like you did with me.

Poia Rewi: I was his pet. [LAUGHTER] like Pania

Ngahiwi Apanui: I can remember one particular experience with Tīmoti when I was running Radio Ngāti Porou. And I got to Gisborne airport. I walked in the door just as he was coming in off the plane. And in front of about 1,000 people there he starts going Apanui E Ko koutou o Te Reo o Ngāti Porou te teihana koretake ki te kōrero Māori e. And I pretended I didn't see him. And I was trying to head off to the toilet. “I kite au i a koe hoki mai” Gotta love him though aye.

Poia Rewi: But I think they were, Tīmoti anyway. I kawe ia i tana reo Taura Whiri tērā, anā i pakanga ia, ahakoa he aha kāore e kōrero Pākehā ki a koe. Nāna te tauira tuatahi ki a mātou kia noho ko Te Kapa Haka o Te Whare Wānanga o Waikato hei kapa haka reo Māori. I'm talking back in the mid-'80s.

Yeah, [INAUDIBLE] question nō Te Whare Wānanga o Waikato anō.

Second kaipātai from the audience

Audience member: Kei ngā tuākana, tēnā kōrua, he pātai tēnei, kua āhua kōrerohia e kōrua i roto i ngā kōrero i te rā nei. Ko taku pātai, he aha te mea uaua rawa o Te Whare o Te Reo Mauri Ora ki a kōrua. Kia ora.

Ngahiwi Apanui: Ko te whakahuihui i ngā poari e rua. Koinā. Mā taua hui anō ka tau te wāhanga ki a mātou tonu o Te Taura Whiri, ki a Poia hoki me tana tira. Nā te mea i tēnei wā tonu, anā, kei te mahi mātou i ā mātou mahi engari ko te hao o te ngākau kia mahi tahi ki a Poia.

Poia Rewi:I tirohia tērā tauira, koutou o Mātaatua e mōhio ana ki te kōrero kāore tētahi o ngā pakitara i te kōrero ki tētahi, tētahi o ngā pū ki tētahi, anā hoki atu ki te tauira a Ngāhiwi, there just wasn't enough conversation going on across everybody. So Te Whare o Te Reo Mauriora was the idea of how to manage that. We’re not there, but as Ngahiwi says, we’ll get there I'll give Ngahiwi another year and we'll be OK.

Ngahiwi Apanui: Just to add to what I was saying. We did the-- we got a-- we got a call from the minister about seven weeks before Te Wiki o te reo Māori. He wanted to have an event to celebrate the petition. And we had been really, really careful about getting offside around COVID regulations and things like that. So once he gave the call we could proceed. And there were things there that were really, really difficult around getting everybody on the same page. We had something like about 10 agencies involved. And you know who contributed to the petition celebrations. And at times it was really, really difficult but we got through them. That was the most important thing.

Mā te aha i te tarai, nē? [CHUCKLES] If you don't try you don't get anything. And look I'm sure, all the agencies and the people from the agencies that worked with us to get it to where it got to, which was a wonderful event on the day. A wonderful two events are really pleased with the part that they played. But when you're trying to teach somebody to work in a new way, or get people to work in a new way, there's always a bit of pain. But at the end of it you look back and you say, OK, well the pain was worth it.

But the big thing for me is just getting clarity between the two sides of the whare. And that's not something that Poia and I can determine. It has to be determined at board level.

Poia Rewi: The model just needs to be — all the components need to be clear within the whare. The whare is more than just Te Mātāwai and Te Taura Whiri. It's got every entity that was involved in language were perceived as being components, core components. But how to get them all to talk together, and know, and understand how you work together. How you have a single drive and a strategy that's-- I think that's the challenge still before us.

For Te Mātāwai when it comes to things like the Māori language weel. We represent the people. We can't just make a quick decision even as a board. Because this is iwi — 109 iwi saying hang on, you’re meant to represent us, we need you to communicate with us. So the Māori language sector is under review right now. So we have to go back out to the tip of the North Island and to the extremities of the South Island to try and be as representative as we can. We haven't nailed it yet, but-- I

Paul Meredith: Ā tōna wā, he pātai anō?

Third kaipātai from the audience

Audience member: E tautoko ana i ngā mihi ki a kōrua i ngā kōrero kua whārikihia e kōrua i te rā nei. Ko taku pātai, kei te kaha kite i ngā tari kāwanatanga e whakaū ana i te reo Māori i roto i ā rātou rautaki mahi, he aha ā kōrua whakaaro mō tērā, ka mutu, mā wai ērā rautaki e hanga?

Ngahiwi Apanui: Kei a mātou o Te Taura Whiri tētahi wāhanga e tautoko nei i ngā tari ki te waihanga mai i ā rātou mahere reo. E tika ana mā rātou tonu e waihanga mai nā te mea mōhio tonu rātou ki tō rātou horopaki. E pērā ana mō ngā iwi, nē. Te tau whakamutunga i noho mai ai ngā moni hapori ki a mātou tonu, i mahi tahi mātou ki ngā iwi tekau mā rima ki te waihanga kaupapa e rite ai ki ō rātou hiahia mō te reo Māori. Katoa rātou i tutuki. Nā reira pērā anō hoki mō ngā tari.

Ko te mate hoki he ruarua noa iho te hunga e mōhio ana ki te reo kōrero Māori i roto i ngā tari nei. Nā, koinei tētahi āhuatanga i āta kitea e MBlack, te rōpū i noho i raro i a Rawinia, i te wā e waihanga ana rātou i te ture mō te reo Māori. Kāore ngā tari nei, ngā whakahaere nei i mōhio ki te whakmahere mō te reo.

Nā reira i puta ai tērā āhuatanga ki a mātou tonu i Te Ture mō te Reo Māori. Nā reira, mā rātou tonu, mā ngā tari tonu e waihanga mai ā rātou mahere. Ko te mate hoki, kāore mātou e mōhio ana mēnā ka pātai mai te Minita ki a au i tēnei wā tonu, Ngāhiwi pēhea hoki te whakatinanatanga o te, me kī, o ngā mahere nei, o te mahi karauna anō hoki, kāore au e āhei ana te whakahoki atu ki a ia, nā te mea kāore i a au ērā mōhiotanga nē.

Nā reira ko tāhau pātai tuatahi, mēnā e whakaū ana ngā mahere, kāore au i te tino mōhio. Tae noa mai ki te mutunga o te tau, te paunga o te tau rānei ka whakatikaina he pūrongo mai i te kōrero haere ki ngā tari nei mēnā i tutuki i a rātou ngā āhuatanga o ā rātou mahere. And sometimes I don't know if they're telling the truth too. [CHUCKLES]

So just to say that, where, at the moment, it's the responsibility of the agencies to do their own plans. We provide support. But we have no way of knowing at any particular time whether or not those plans are actually being implemented or whether they're actually successful right until the end of the year when a survey is carried out and a report is produced. Usually, six months after the year has finished.

So, one of the things we're looking seriously at is what tool, what technological tool can we use that would allow us to be able to trace and track how the Maihi Karauna and how the language plans are being implemented.

Poia Rewi: Kei runga i tēnā kaupapa ko te uauatanga ki Te Mātāwai, i te wā e ako ana tētahi kaimahi i te reo i tana tari, i te wā e kōrero ana ia, e kōrero ana ia mōna te pai, e kōrero ana rānei ia mō te pai o te reo. Me pēnei pea taku whakamāori, mēnā ka mahi te tangata i tana pepeha i waenga i te iwi, he painga tērā mō te iwi, he painga rānei tērā mō te tangata i kī mai, anā i ako au i taku pepeha, anā kua haramai ki te tuku i taku pepa ki a koe, e te iwi Māori? He tauira noa iho tēnei.

So that's a challenge for the Te Mātāwai’s, yes do the language. But then what's the purpose of your language? So that you can practise on our iwi because I can be pretty confident that when you practising on your iwi, that not one to be the recipient of that type of engagement.

For us when we take it and provide an environment where when our people come into those government entities, they can be met by someone that's speaking a language they are comfortable in. So that's something for consideration. But kei a ngā iwi te mahi nui mō tēnā.

Paul Meredith: Te āhua nei kua pau te tāima ki a tātou, heoi anō ko tāku nei e mihi atu nei ki a kōrua i runga i tō kōrua whakaaro rangatira kua whāriki mai ki mua ki a mātou nei nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa. Heoi anō, haere tonu ngā mihi.

[LAUGHTER]

Paul Meredith: ...tērā pea, he koha? You said you had a gift you wanted to present?

Tanja Schubert-McArthur: Already done.

Paul Meredith: Already done. Kua oti kē, heoi anō tēnā koutou Kia ora tātou i whai tāima ki te whakarongo ki te tokorua nei me ngā kōrero rangatira. Tēnei te mihi, tēnei te mihi. Tērā pea he waiata?

Waiata tautoko — Te Hokinga Mai

Tangi a te ruru
Kei te hokihoki mai e
E whakawherowhero i te pūtahitanga
Nāku nei rā koe
I tuku kia haere
Tērā puritia iho
Nui rawa te aroha e

Te hokinga mai tēnā koutou
Tangi ana te ngākau i te aroha
Tū tonu rā te mana te ihi
O ngā tupuna kua wehe atu rā
Mauria mai
Te Mauri
Tangata
Hei oranga mō te mōrehu
Tangi mōkai nei
E rapu ana i te ara tika
Mō tātou kātoa

Te hokinga mai tēnā koutou
Tangi ana te ngākau i te aroha
Tū tonu rā te mana te ihi
O ngā tupuna kua wehe atu rā
Mauria mai
Te Mauri
Tangata
Hei oranga mō te mōrehu
Tangi mōkai nei
E rapu ana i te ara tika
Mō tātou kātoa

E rapu ana i te ara tika
Mō tātou kātoa

Te hokinga mai
Tū tangata